> Chinese Culture > Art and Literature
Chinese poetry
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skylee -

Two of my favourite poems are 蘇幕遮 by 范仲淹 (Fan Zhongyan) and 江城子 by 蘇軾 (Su
Shi) -


Quote:

"蘇幕遮"
碧雲天，黃葉地。秋色連波，波上寒煙翠。山映斜陽天接水。芳草無情，更�
��斜陽外。

黯鄉魂，追旅思。夜夜除非，好夢留人睡。明月樓高休獨倚。酒入愁腸，化�
��相思淚。



Quote:

"江城子"
十年生死兩茫茫。不思量，自難忘。千裡孤墳，無處話淒涼。
縱使相逢應不識，塵滿面，鬢如霜。

夜來幽夢忽還鄉。小軒窗，正梳妝。相顧無言，惟有淚千行。
料得年年腸斷處，明月夜，短松崗。

Do note that these are "詞" (lyrics), thus the uneven length of the phrases. They were popular
during Song Dynasty.



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roddy -

I'm not going to split this topic up, but I think it might be wise for you to start new topics to
introduce new poets / poems - it'll be easier to follow for new visitors, and keep things a little
bit more tidy.

I could be wrong though. I'm not the police or anything.

Roddy










skylee -

What? You are not the police now?










roddy -

No, I decided to 干 more 事实. Now get on with the poetry stuff.










markalexander100 -

Li Bai's making more sense now- thanks!










skylee -

I've just seen a movie featuring Andy Lau, and this has somehow reminded me of his old movie
天若有情, and then Mao Zedong's poem "人民解放軍佔領南京" (what a name) -


Quote:

鐘山風雨起蒼黃，百萬雄師過大江。虎距龍盤今勝昔，天翻地覆慨而慷。
宜將剩勇追窮寇，不可沽名學霸王。天若有情天亦老，人間正道是滄桑。

But I only like the last part of this poem, which is also the most famous. Another one of his
popular poems is "沁園春" -


Quote:

北國風光，千里冰封，萬里雪飄。望長城內外，惟餘莽莽；大河上下，
頓失滔滔。山舞銀蛇，原馳蠟象，欲與天公試比高。須晴日，看紅妝素裹，�
��外妖嬈。

江山如此多嬌，引無數英雄競折腰。惜秦皇漢武，略輸文采；唐宗宋祖，稍�
��風騷。一代天驕，成吉思漢，只識彎弓射大雕。俱往矣，數風流人物，還��
�今朝。

I don't think any ordinary/less confident man would dare to write such a poem, comparing oneself
to Qin Shihuang, Han Wudi and Chinggis Khan, among others.










garcia -

衰蘭送客咸陽道，天若有情天亦老 this is from li he!!










skylee -

Sure that is from 李賀. But the first one I quoted is from 毛澤東 (obviously he
stole/copied/borrowed something from 李賀).










nnt -

Two verses from 黄巢 :

半肩弓劍憑天縱
一掉江山盡地維

Does anyone know if they are part of a poem or not ? The 全唐诗 contains only three poems from
the Tang rebel, and these 2 verses are not included.










garcia -

恨世間、情是何物，直教生死相許。天南地北雙飛客，老翅幾回寒暑。
歡樂趣。離別苦。就中更有痴兒女，君應有語，
渺萬裡層雲，千山暮雪，只影為誰去

how about this? i love this lyric very much.












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> Learning Chinese > Resources and General Study Issues
a nice source
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39degN -

i would like introduce a nice site, singapore united morning post, it's my all time favorate, as
their articles usually from objective perspecitives, and without political motive(or some authers
with totally different or opposite political pespictives),lots of news focus on taiwan, mainland,
and hongkong. also a lots of debates there, and it‘s is actually a real "open forum" in
chinese（compare with mainland's and taiwan's), hope you guys like it!

www.zaobao.com



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skylee -

It is quite good. Plenty of interesting articles. Like -

搶救馬英九： 拉臉皮　除眼袋 (ha ha ha)
語法本來就是靈活的 (SVO? SOV? VSOP?)

And you can turn them into traditional Chinese!

Thanks for sharing.










39degN -

hehe, funny!

BTW, sky, i have a question, do you think the 楷书 is readable on the site? i'm not sure about
it, seems there are lots of traditional chinese site using it, but i dont think it's so
reader-friendly.










skylee -

I am not sure I understand the question. The font of traditional Chinese on this site is just ...
normal. No problem at all.










39degN -

yeah, the font is normal, but i just meant 宋体等印刷体 will be easier recognized than
楷书, the thick strokes of 楷书 can simply make confusing. dont you t hink so?












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> Learning Chinese > Reading and Writing
Characters vs phonetic writing systems
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wix -

ChouDoufu wrote this another thread but I am quoting it here to start a new topic, because it is
an interesting and important issue. Let the debate begin...



Quote:


Originally Posted by ChouDoufu

Yes, learning Chinese characters are difficult. That's the only thing I agree with though. There
are a lot of people who have a belief that writing systems should be phonetic (I find it
incredibly ironic that a native English speaker is praising the English phonetic system. English
phonetics don't make a lot of sense either--under pronunciation rules in english "ghoti" can sound
like "fish). Well, obviously if a language had a phonetic alphabet, it makes it easier to write
and read. But to say that All languages need to be phonetic is just ridiculous. What makes Chinese
appealing to so many people are the characters. Without the characters, Chinese would be
destroying thousands of years of history.

I don't think they should do that in order to appease people who want to learn the language. I've
always found characters to be rewarding and intruiging.

Yes it's difficult, but it's the difficulties that make things interesting.






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Anonymous -

I pretty much agree with Chou Doufu. Also I'd like to add that one advantage characters have over
a phonetic writing system is that with characters, readers immediately get the meaning in his or
her head. It's almost like looking at a painting rather than just text. Good examples can be found
in Japanese where the writing system is a mixture of characters (Kanji) and phoentic letters
(kanas).

However, a phoentic system is also extremely important and also has its advantages. This is why
the Zhuyin Fuhao was first invented in the early 1900's and then later Hanyu Pinyin.










roddy -

Thanks for starting the thread wix, I hadn't had time to do it myself last night.



Quote:

readers immediately get the meaning in his or her head

Sorry, but they don't. Nobody who hadn't studied Chinese (or any other simliar language could look
at � and think fish - it's only through repeated association of the symbol and the idea that the
meaning comes into your head.

If readers immediately got the meaning in their head, we wouldn't need to learn Chinese - we would
already know it.

Roddy










jwarriner -

Kind of an interesting paradox here. Sure written language came after spoken language but the
pictographic or ideographic nature of Chinese characters says to me that the effort to develop the
written language wasn't based entirely on the spoken word but also attempted to pictorially
represent the thing, concept, idea, etc. So once you know what a character means it seems to me
possible that at least some of its meaning is taken in visually rather than aurally. Even with my
limited knowledge of Chinese, there are times when I remember what a character means but not how
to say it.
And the use in China of certain characters in art of various forms suggests that much of its
meaning is indeed transferred visually. There's a big difference between having a painting on the
wall with
DAO
and one with
�

cheers,
john










Anonymous -



Quote:


Originally Posted by roddy

Thanks for starting the thread wix, I hadn't had time to do it myself last night.



Quote:

readers immediately get the meaning in his or her head

Sorry, but they don't. Nobody who hadn't studied Chinese (or any other simliar language could look
at ? and think fish - it's only through repeated association of the symbol and the idea that the
meaning comes into your head.

If readers immediately got the meaning in their head, we wouldn't need to learn Chinese - we would
already know it.

Roddy


Uhm, you're kidding right? Although I didn't specify but I assumed people would know that I was
talking about people who know the characters. Of course the modern Hanzi won't look like anything
but scribbles to those who don't know Chinese...










sudasana -

You can't say that characters have a natural association with the idea they represent: even the
ideographic class of characters is opaque to anyone who hasn't learned their meaning. In both
character and phonetic writing you have a sign which corresponds to an idea. With characters, you
have a vast number of signs, the pronounciation of which is bascially arbitrary, and varies by
dialaect and time period. With phonetic writing, you have a small set of signs that indicate
sounds.

The Chinese writing system is ineffecient in that it requires a lot of investment in order to
master written communication; in the past this helped keep the literati in power, by maintaining a
monopoly on the creation and spread of texts. Regardless of its artistic or historical value, the
character system has no benefits over a phonetic system. It's only the massive inertia of the
character system that keeps it alive; Vietnam and Korea were successful in developing phonetic
systems to write their languages, whereas in the past they used Chinese characters.

I was pretty excited about Chinese characters too until I read Asia's Orthographic Dilemma. If you
strip away the exoticism that comes with a 'strange' method of writing, you may realize that, at
best, hanzi solve many of the problems that they themselves cause.










roddy -



Quote:

one advantage characters have over a phonetic writing system is that with characters, readers
immediately get the meaning in his or her head

This means readers of phonetic scripts don't immediately get the meaning in their head, which is
simply not true - I can't believe reading � is any more immediate than reading fish.

I'd also like to agree with what sudsana wrote - and thanks for saving me the bother of typing it
all.

Roddy










confucius -

Using the Chinese character for fish is a horrible example to make a point for phonetics. The key
to learning new words in Chinese is understanding the importance of compound meanings. This allows
you to guess at the meaning of new words by immediately analyzing the two characters it's
comprised of.
For example, if I just write "nankan" in pinyin phonetics then a Chinese guy won't have any clue
what it means. Yet when he sees the characters for "nan" and "kan" then at least he knows the new
word means "something that is difficult to look at" and concludes that those two characters
together mean "ugly"










roddy -

Yeah, I agree that once you've learnt the characters Chinese isn't so difficult - and like the
ugly example, Chinese vocabulary can be beautifully logical.

It's learning the characters in the first place that's the problem - not just for us, but for
generations of Chinese people.

Roddy










roddy -

And . . .(forgot this)

I've been told that it's impossible to create an adequate phonetic system for Chinese, as there
are so few phonemes you have too many homonyns.

Sounds like rubbish to me. A phonetic script is simply one that includes all the information given
by the spoken language - if you have a spoken language that works, then you can have a phonetic
system. You just need a consistent orthagraphy - whether you do this with tone marks above vowels,
numbers after syllables, or whatever, it'll work.

Sure, you might have problems with words in isolation - context won't help you - but how often do
you have words in isolation?

Roddy












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> Learning Chinese > Speaking and Listening
Learning Chinese and forgetting the rest. . .
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roddy -

There's a topic on here about getting foreign languages mixed up. Does anyone find they start
making a mess of their own language after too long working in Chinese?

I'm finding my English getting more and more Chinese like. I've been known to ask people to 'open
a light' rather than turn on one, and frequently have to go back to my office because I've
forgotten to 'close my computer' rather than turn it off or shut it down.

I've also made reference recently to a floor comb (floorbrush) and electric tap (plug). These are
perhaps most worrying as I don't think they're even correct in Chinese, never mind English.

Roddy



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ChouDoufu -

I think that just happens naturally. If you don't speak your native language enough with native
speakers then your level definitely drops. If you said those things in the UK or the states then
people would look at you funny.

After a while, when people asked me questions about English I'd just say, "I should know the
answer to that, but I don't because my English isn't nearly as good as it used to be."










Humani -

I do that, without even knowing chinese... I mean I'll say 'you close the computer, or?' instead
of 'did you switch off the computer?' 'you put the CD where?' instead of 'where did you put the
CD?'even when i can't say that sentence in chinese... we have conversations like that all the
time, english words and chinese grammar.. no-one knows both languages properly... (and this is in
england). it's a real effort, to start speaking properly when i'm with my family. my mum keeps
telling me i've said a strange sentence, and i don't even notice..

when i get around to learning these words in chinese, I hoping the word order will come natuarlly
at least!










Tsunku -

I've been called out on my "Chinglish" more than once. Since I was living in China with a Chinese
person (but mostly speaking English) it got really bad. I was supposed to be correcting my
boyfriend's grammar and helping it out, but I was worse than he was.

I still catch myself sometimes now that I'm back. What's worse is mixing Chinese into English. My
friends probably think I'm trying to be ghetto with all the "nigga nigga." That was one that I
*swore* to myself I would try not to import back to the states, but it pops out my mouth all the
time anyhow.










skylee -

But this is what happens to us in HK all the time. We basically cannot say anything without mixing
up Chinese and English. I have to make an effort to speak completely in Chinese.

I recall back in univ, there was a teacher who was Taiwanese, educated in the US and taught in HK.
He could not complete a sentence without using all three (mandarin, english and cantonese).










confucius -

I find it mildly annoying when I'm talking to native Chinese speakers and they somehow mix English
words into their language despite the fact that suitable Chinese vocabulary exists. It's usually
like this:
"Nei ge Feizhou tongxue hen polite; wo xiang qing ta lai women de party."
In my mind I always immediately translate whatever English words were just spoken into the proper
Mandarin, sometimes I even interrupt them with the appropriate Chinese word.










wix -



Quote:


Originally Posted by confucius

I find it mildly annoying when I'm talking to native Chinese speakers and they somehow mix English
words into their language despite the fact that suitable Chinese vocabulary exists.


confucius, I agree. Foreigners in China are also guilty of doing the same while speaking English.
e.g. Let's go out for a few pijiu's and so on. It is really only useful when you are using a word
which is difficult to translate or has no equivalent in the other language.










jekor -

One girl I spoke with in Japan switched between Esperanto, English, and Japanese all within the
same sentence. By the end of one day of speaking with her, not only was I exhausted, but I was
doing the same thing myself. I wish I had a recording of the conversation we had while I was
showing her how to transfer images from her digital camera to her computer...










pazu -



Quote:


Originally Posted by confucius

I find it mildly annoying when I'm talking to native Chinese speakers and they somehow mix English
words into their language despite the fact that suitable Chinese vocabulary exists. It's usually
like this:
"Nei ge Feizhou tongxue hen polite; wo xiang qing ta lai women de party."
In my mind I always immediately translate whatever English words were just spoken into the proper
Mandarin, sometimes I even interrupt them with the appropriate Chinese word.



Oh Confucius, for the first time I agree with you totally!

This is something I hate too. I'm Chinese, but whenever Chinese talked to me with too much
unnecessary interruption of English words, I just told them if they could speak Chinese well...
it's just too annoying. Do you know the pianist Lang Lang? (I forgot his name in Chinese... LONG
LONG in Cantonese anyway), he was interviewed on RTHK when he was in Hong Kong, and I wonder what
he's really want to tell, e.g. "wo juede zheshi hen... IN'NOVATIVE ,,, hen you CHUANGYI, wo hai
shi hen xihuan zhexie MUSIC,,, jiushi YINYUE!

Okay, he didn't use this wording, but I'm just trying to do what he did in the interview.

Oh what the hell he was talking about? Like going in an English lesson, tell you an English word,
then come with a Chinese explanation. This is really some of the most annoying thing you can hear.

But of course, I don't mind to put some English words into conversation, but they should be
necessary or at least accepted by most people. Like CD, i-cable (a company name in Hong Kong, they
have a Chinese name too), NOTEBOOK (computer), MOUSEEEE (computer), etc.










skylee -

The pianist's name is 郎朗.












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> Studying, Working and Living in China > Living in China
JOB OPPORTUNITIES Beijing ?
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beijingbooty -

Can anyone offer any advice on what sort of job opportunities would be available for me in Beijing.
I guess the most obvious is teaching english, but I do not have a University degree so does that
limit me in that respect ?
I do want to go and live.work in Bejing with my chinese wife however I really am at a loss as to
what sort of work I would be able to get that pays well. What sort of "good" opportunites are
there for mandarin speaking europeans ?
Any advice would be great.


My situation is:
native english speaker 32 years old.
LANGUAGE: Intermediate mandarin, good enough for basic communication in a workplace. Constantly
improving
TRADE: printing industry prepress operatior - typesetting, design techinal operation etc.



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TSkillet -

Officially, not having a University degree does limit you - but in practice, it's certainly been
done quite a lot. If the legalness worries you - look into private teaching. Try snooping around
thatsbeijing.com












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> Learning Chinese > Chinese Tattoos, Chinese Names and Quick Translations
i've seen this in a comic
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Jill77 -

Any idea about the meaning?

thanks



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skylee -

西
班
牙

It means "Spain". Very bad handwriting.












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> Learning Chinese > Grammar and Vocabulary
摔倒 vs 摔到 or 摔到了
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Luobot -

( 1 ) 摔倒 Shuāidǎo
( 2 ) 摔到 Shuāi dào ( or with the seemingly obligatory 了) 摔到了 Shuāi dàole

Both are defined as “to fall” and the characters ( 倒 / 到 ) are close enough to have
confused me for a while into thinking they were the same, until just now, when I realized there
was a tone difference (dao3 vs. dao4) and looked more closely.

So, does anyone know if there's a difference in usage between these two terms or are they
interchangeable in sentences?



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monto -

( 1 ) 摔倒 Shuāidǎo: to fall down, lying after 摔.
我看到有人跑过去把摔倒的老人扶了起来。
( 2 ) 摔到 Shuāi dào ( or with the seemingly obligatory 了) 摔到了 Shuāi dàole
a> 摔到(摔到了) = 摔着（摔着了）to be made to fall
John slipped in night. Jack （in concern）: 你摔到了吗？John: 差一点。没摔到。
b> 摔到 to throw something onto.....
他把杯子摔到（了）地上










semantic nuance -

Hmmm, I'll try to explain but mind you this is totally out of my instinct instead of any
grammatical rules. My understanding is that:

You can take 摔 alone kind of like transitive verb. For exmaple: 我摔了一跤. 摔倒 , kind
of like phrasal verb (倒 like off). As for 摔到..., you may take 到 once again as an
preposition to indicate where and what you fall on(i.e. on the ground, on knees, etc.)

我摔倒了. I fell off.
我摔倒在地上了. I fell off on the ground.
我摔到地上去了. I fell off on the ground.
我摔到膝蓋了. I fell off and hurt my knees.

Hope it helps!










foryou1437 -

摔倒 vs 摔到 or 摔到了 Remember the rule just a subject and a singel verb cannt make a
sentene in China
!

The three phrases all contain "fall/tumble" respectively. 倒 means "a status, over" , 到 means"
to affect", 了 means" already"

The first 摔倒 will be followed with a Where to complete a full sentence , such as ,摔倒 on
the ground. 我摔倒在地上。I fall myeself on the ground
the third 摔到了 = 摔倒， but needs no any more following word . 了 here equal to already.
我摔倒了。I fall myself .

The second 摔到 contain two part, 摔 and 到. 到 means "to afftect". So 摔到 = fall and
afftect , here = fall and hurt . 我摔到膝盖。I fall and hurt my knees.










Luobot -

Thanks, everyone, for the explanations.












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> Learning Chinese > Chinese Tattoos, Chinese Names and Quick Translations
Translating names - Urgent!
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FencerPT -

Can anyone write me in Chinese characters the following names, belonging to the members of the
Portuguese fencing team in the Beijing Olympics:

- Joaquim Videira
- Helder Alves
- Debora Nogueira
- Eduardo Pereira

Thanks in advance!



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FencerPT -

I posted a thread, last week, asking for someone's help to translate into Chinese the names of the
Portuguese fencers who'll be in the Olympics (Debora Nogueira, Eduardo Pereira, Joaquim Videira
and Helder Alves). Although lots of people read it, no translation is available so far. Is it that
difficult?!
Thanks in advance.










imron -

It's not necessarily difficult, it's just imprecise. Have a read of these two threads to get an
idea of why:

http://www. /showthread.php?t=16630
http://www. /showthread.php?t=14087

There is also the problem that any names that people provide for you here, will be different from
the official names that will presumably be chosen for you by the Beijing Olympic organising
committee and/or the Chinese media.










Lu -

I also suspect that this is not the place to ask such things. If you need it for anything
important (as suggested by the 'urgent'), you're best off asking some official source (some
Chinese Olympic committee? Those fencers must have registered somewhere in China), not a public
forum, however helpful people here are. If you are the official source, you should presumably find
someone reliable used to this kind of work and pay them to give you a good transliteration.

I hope you find it!










renzhe -

There are probably about 300 ways to transcribe each one of those names, and they are likely to be
different from the official transcription used by the IOC.












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> Studying, Working and Living in China > Living in China
Sending Books from US to China
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Zhoule -

I am heading back to the US for a couple weeks worth of work/meetings, etc and wanted to ship some
books back to China that are currently rotting away in a US storage unit(much like my brain is
rotting away without the books in China ).
The last time I looked into doing this (December of '07) I was disappointed to see that the USPS
no longer did the MBag, or any surface mail, overseas, and only offered airmail.

Has anyone found another method to be workable? I am talking about ~200 lbs of books, 3 large
boxes. Though this could be paired down (and would definitely be if I have to do some variant of
airmail). Got at least another 5-7 years here (minus 6 month time served ) and the thought of
having to order from Amazon once a month when I already have a ton of books in the US waiting to
be read is heart breaking



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self-taught-mba -

I think the USPS has a flat rate box for $38 bucks (priority mailer). No weight limit. Seen people
get the heaviest books into those. I know you said NOT USPS but many don't know about the
flat-rate options. Sorry best I can do.










889 -

Your airline will charge a fortune for overweight checked luggage: the standard is something like
1 percent of the published first-class fare per kilo.

But most airlines also offer an alternate, usually called something like "unaccompanied baggage,"
that gets shipped as cargo. Usually you have to deliver the stuff yourself to the airline's cargo
terminal the day before you leave, then pick it up and clear customs at the air cargo terminal at
the other end.

Cost will vary with the airline, but they should be able to give you a quote over the phone. Be
sure to ask about all the surcharges.

(The $38.95 flat-rate USPS box has a 20-lb limit.)












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> Studying, Working and Living in China > Universities and Schools > Studying
Chinese in Beijing
BLCU Housing Info, what I know
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Page 13 of 13 First < 31112 13






gablaze23 -

Thanks. I've seen those pics some time ago. Any others??



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BLCUP -

i am a blcu staff










eddie9684 -



Quote:

i am a blcu staff

nice, any recommendation ?










George--- -

What are the rates for dorm 17?










raymond23 -

I've got a video showing my room in BLCU's Conference Center.
Also I'm going to goto my friends room at Dorm 17 and I'm going to record that and upload to my
account soon.
http://youtube.com/user/RayisLost

As far as I know... rooms @ Dorm 17 is around 100rmb/day.
This is from my friends that are living @ Dorm 17 currently.

I'm living at the conference center and I'm paying around 120rmb/day but thats with a three month
stay discount. They also have a half a year discount which I think is 110rmb/day.
So that might be a choice for you guys.












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> Learning Chinese > Grammar and Vocabulary
True Plurals in Chinese
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tooironic -

A phenomenon I noticed recently in some dictionaries, is that they give definitions to some
Chinese words with the marker (pl.) [plural] next to them. Is this to suggest that, despite
Chinese having no grammatical category for number, there are indeed some characters which are
exclusively plural?

Here's a few examples I found quickly:

师资 Teachers
时事　Current affairs
世人 The common people
世事　The world affairs
市民　City residents

Could all these be used only in a plural context? Or can they be both plural and singular? In
which case my dictionary appears to have made some errors...



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889 -

Well first, there are a small number of "true plurals" in Chinese: think 你们 nimen, for example.

And second, is that dictionary you're using a Chinese > English one? If so, it's probably intended
mainly for Chinese users working in English. That suggests those plural notations refer not to the
Chinese words, but to the English ones, telling the user that it's "the common people are," not
"the common people is."










imron -



Quote:

Could all these be used only in a plural context?

市民 at least can be used in the singular.










tooironic -



Quote:

And second, is that dictionary you're using a Chinese > English one? If so, it's probably intended
mainly for Chinese users working in English. That suggests those plural notations refer not to the
Chinese words, but to the English ones, telling the user that it's "the common people are," not
"the common people is."

I also considered that, but why choose plural definitions for some words and not for others?
At any rate, I'd be interested to know the existence of other plural-only Chinese words...










yonglin -

I think that some of these are uncountable rather than in the plural form.

(You may want to compare them with nouns such as "news", "evidence" or "information" in English.)










tooironic -

Got some more examples:

书籍 Books
树木　Trees
双方　Both sides
双胞胎　Twins
双亲 Parents
水产 Aquatic products
水货 Smuggled/inferior goods
水禽 Aquatic birds
死党 Diehard supporters
岁月 Years

Could these, as well as those in the original post, be seen as 'plural versions' of their singular
counterparts? Assuming these counterparts are easily identified? What I'm veering towards is an
argument that would state that Chinese does have its own de-facto form of pluralisation, even if
it is expressed lexically (rather than most European languages, which express number
grammatically).










Ah-Bin -

Some nouns that originally indicated plurals with 民 (meaning "people") are used as singular in
Chinese too. So I think some nouns can change from a singular meaning to a plural meaning and
no-one will notice.

At least I think they were plural. They are of a semi-political and post-1949 in character. I
don't know whether areas outside PRC jurisdiction use them.

農民 - farmer (Taiwan uses 農夫 I think)
漁民 - fisherman (I'm not sure about 漁夫, though)

Oh no, I was wrong - 原住民 - Aboriginal Taiwanese - is used officially in Taiwan.

Then there are collective nouns that have become singular. Like 族

So it seems natural in the PRC to say 我是漢族 "I am ethnically Han" (or at least that's what
is stamped on my identity card). But the grammar seems strange. How can a single person be a whole
"族"? Outside PRC jurisdication I think people tend to say the singulars 漢人 or 華人 and
西藏人 instead of 漢族 and　藏族. Mind you this is just my feeling based on what I have
heard, so I may be wrong.












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> Learning Chinese > Speaking and Listening
多 - tone change from duō to duó?
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dsrguru -

I was always under the assumption that 多 is pronounced duō. I've been working through the FSI
course (rather slowly), and in the fifth and sixth units of the BIO module, 多大 is taught as
duódà and 多久 as duójiǔ. FSI does that kind of thing often (e.g. teaching 中國人 as
Zhōngguorén instead of Zhōngguórén and 七個 (likewise for 八個) as qíge instead of qīge
or qīgè) to make the pronunciation more accurate, but I have never seen 多 taught as duó in my
life. Can anyone, perhaps a native speaker, verify this?



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necroflux -

Not a native speaker but I can attest to the fact that everywhere in Taiwan and China I've been
it's definitely pronounced duo1.

If you have questions like this on tones you can check an actual Chinese dictionary online
(Chinese to Chinese):

http://dict.revised.moe.edu.tw/cgi-b...op=f&imgFont=1

That particular dictionary is from Taiwan, tones may change for some words but this one should be
as consistent as they get from region to region.










HashiriKata -

@dsrguru: I'm not a native speaker but your observation above is all correct, and it is quite
common for 多大 to be pronounced as duódà and 多久 as duójiǔ. The only thing I'd say is
that if you would like to imitate, just imitate the combinations you've actually heard (ie, not
yourself create new ones).
(干吗 is also pronounced as gan4ma2, by the way)










skylee -

Some of the posts in this thread are relevant ->
http://www. /showthread.php?t=22937

Also take a look at the dictionary of the Taiwan Ministry of Education (the same dictionary quoted
by necroflux) -



Quote:

多　　部首　夕　部首外筆畫　3　總筆畫　6
注音一式　 ㄉㄨㄛˊ
通用拼音　 duó 注音二式　 duó

副
何等、如何。表疑問、感嘆的語氣。如：「多好」、「多高」、「帶大一個�
��子是多麼不容易啊！」












dsrguru -

Thanks guys.

necroflux - My Chinese isn't good enough at present to use that dictionary (and I never bothered
to learn bopomofo), but I'm bookmarking it for the future.

HashiriKata - I'm glad to hear that. I think I'll pronounce 多 as duó in the specific
combinations in which FSI teaches it as duó, and I'll pronounce it as duō everywhere else.

skylee - I remember glancing through that thread about a month ago, but I didn't notice your post
and muyongshi's reply. Thanks. Before posting this thread, I had searched with Google using
site: rather than with this site's search feature (I got the idea from you), but
that thread didn't come up. I think I searched for 多 duó rather than 多 duo2. Note to self:
remember to search for pinyin both with tone marks and with numbers. When did that dictionary say
to pronounce 多 as duó? I tried using Google Translator to get a very general idea but it came
out even worse than normal:


Quote:

Xi radical and more radical, three strokes of six strokes
Pronunciation of a building ㄨ ㄛ ˊ
Tongyong Pinyin duó Phonetic two-duó

Deputy
How, how. Table doubt, laments the tone. Such as: "good" and "high" and "brought up a child how
Burongyia!"












skylee -



Quote:


Originally Posted by dsrguru

When did that dictionary say to pronounce 多 as duó?


The dictionary says it is used as an adverb (which is what the character "副" means) and
pronounced duó in exclamation and to express doubt. Examples are "How nice!" ("多好"), "How
hard it is to bring up a child!" ("帶大一個孩子是多麼不容易啊！") , etc.










dsrguru -

Okay, thanks. That still leaves question phrases like 多大, 多久, and 多少. I'm guessing
based on necroflux's and HashiriKata's posts that they can be pronounced either way, but I'm a
little wary of this. I think I'll follow FSI (duó) until native speakers tell me it sounds weird.










zhxlier -

Native speaker here. Born and raised in Beijing, so I can only speak of the situation in Beijing.

My impression: when used as an adverb, 多 can be pronounced as both duo1 and duo2.
When pronounced duo1, it sounds more formal and neutral.
When pronounced duo2, it sounds more casual and/or emotional.

Example, if I'm shopping, I'd ask "多(duo1) 少钱？“ (How much?)
If I learned that someone bought this 4-bedroom luxury house, I'd say
"那得花多(duo2)少钱啊！" (Imagine HOW MUCH that would cost!)
But even in these context, duo1 and duo2 are still exchangeable.

Of course, when used an an adjective, 多 is always pronounced duo1 (as in 许多).










dsrguru -

zhxlier, thank you very much.












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> Learning Chinese > Speaking and Listening
Yale 130 L&S Transcripts
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Page 1 of 2 1 2 >






Aloysius -

The Yale Chinese CH130 website provides us kindly with the audio recordings of David and Helen in
China and Listening & Speaking Chinese. The first 15 (of the total 20) L&S recordings come with
transcripts and are downloadable from the website.

This morning I very quickly wrote out Lesson 20, but there could be some small mistakes especially
towards the end where I lost concentration and wasn't too qingchu about one or two things (oh and
I was too lazy to IME all the de's, a bad habit - not cross-checking the IME in general btw. :>).
近年来不少去过中国的人都会为五光十色的服装而惊叹。过去的二十年来，�
��国经济的改革开放也促进了人们思想和文化观念的开放。从中国人的穿着��
�扮上，我们可以清楚地看到中国人生活中所发生的巨大变化。今天中国不仅
是世界上最大的服装出口国，而且也是服装的最大消费国。在改革开放以前�
��也就是八十年代以前，中国的服装一直是式样单一花色单调。居常颜的颜��
�都是深色的或者暗色的，如蓝的，绿的，灰的，黑的，等等。不管男女老少
人人都穿同样颜色合同颜式样的衣服，没有个性，没有各自的特地。这种单�
��单调的服装反映了当时落后的经济状况。人民穿衣服不是为了装饰不是为��
�好看，而这是为了遮蔽身体和防御寒冷。对老百姓来说，很少有人买得起贵
重的衣服。即使有钱政府也不鼓励人们穿新奇的衣服。今天不同了，
美容服饰成了人们生活中很重要的一部分。很都人尤其是年轻人和一切白领�
��作人员，每个月的收入很大一部分都花在衣服上。人们不再每天只穿统一��
�衣服或统一式样的衣服。他们学会了打扮自己，让自己跟别人不一样。而且
不但年轻人爱美连老年人也越来越追求美了。老年人过去连做梦也不感想花�
��绿绿的衣服。现在都勇敢的穿戴了现象。美丽漂亮的服装是这些老年人感��
�年轻了跟富有朝气了。中国的服装款式在不断地变化。服装设计师么也在不
断把新的样式核心的色彩推向市场，以满足人们的需求。从某种意义上说中�
��多彩的不装市场，最生动地展现了一个变化中的中国和变化中的中国人。
I was wondering does anybody have 16-19? And what about D&H; did anyone ever bother?
Still need to look at D&H really, I have no idea if it's any good.

Ta in advance anyway good people.



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atitarev -

Excellent resources, will download all these and work through! It took me a little white to
navigate.

Sorry, can't help with your query. I've never seen this textbook but it seems very popular. I've
been using "New Practical Chinese Reader" among others.










Aloysius -

Yale's Listening & Speaking's #19 - 赴宴

你好郭红红。诶呀雅克，你昨天晚上干什么去了？我们不是说好在一起复习�
��课了吗。到处找你找不到，大家都以为你失踪了呢。天啊，我这么把复习��
�课的事忘了，对不起郭红红。我昨天晚上去参加了一个结婚宴会特别热闹。
你还有心思去参加宴会啊？下星期这就大考了。没办法好朋友邀请不能拒绝�
��。那你参加的是谁的结婚宴会？是我的球友老张的。老张？
多老了？什么才结婚呢？大家都叫他老张，其实他并不老，才这有二十七岁�
��他已经看了两年的恋爱，昨天正好是八月八号。据说是个吉利的日子。一��
�儿不错。八八八发发发，发就是发财的意思。怎么样宴会上的人多吗？多极
了，新郎和新粮双方的很多亲戚朋友。多出席了宴会。游戏什么活动呢？主�
��人先让新郎新娘介绍恋爱经过。他们是自由恋爱的，没有通过别人的介绍��
�不过他们的故事还是挺浪漫的。还有什么人讲话?
好几个人都讲了话，因为我肚子早饿了,没认真听他们到底受了谢(?)什么。好
像都在重复说恭喜恭喜,早得贵子，白头到老之类的话。那你一定吃了不少好
东西吧。真的我第一次看见真么丰盛的酒席，山珍海味，应有尽有。你没有�
��坏肚子吧？
绝对没有，不过我喝酒喝多了一点儿，因为大家呼唱（？）敬酒，尤其看见�
��是个会说中国话的老外。更是（？）劝我多喝幸亏我酒量大没有喝醉。别��
�了！我看你现在还有一点儿醉呢
.开玩笑吧！我要是醉了，还能在这儿给你说话吗？

Post scriptum request for the good people - please enlighten me on the meaning of
"哪怕只有碗来粗细罢".










monto -

近年来不少去过中国的人都会为五光十色的服装而惊叹。过去的二十年来，�
��国经济的改革开放也促进了人们思想和文化观念的开放。从中国人的穿着��
�扮上，我们可以清楚地看到中国人生活中所发生的巨大变化。今天中国不仅
是世界上最大的服装出口国，而且也是服装的最大消费国。在改革开放以前�
��也就是八十年代以前，中国的服装一直是式样单一花色单调。居常颜的颜��
�都是深色的或者暗色的，如蓝的，绿的，灰的，黑的，等等。不管男女老少
人人都穿同样颜色和同颜式样的衣服，没有个性，没有各自的特点。这种单�
��单调的服装反映了当时落后的经济状况。人们穿衣服不是为了装饰，不是��
�了好看，而是为了遮蔽身体和防御寒冷。对老百姓来说，很少有人买得起贵
重的衣服。即使有钱政府也不鼓励人们穿新奇的衣服。今天不同了，
美容服饰成了人们生活中很重要的一部分。很多人尤其是年轻人和一些白领�
��作人员，每个月的收入很大一部分都花在衣服上。人们不再每天只穿同一��
�衣服或统一式样的衣服。他们学会了打扮自己，让自己跟别人不一样。而且
不但年轻人爱美，连老年人也越来越追求美了。老年人过去连做梦也不敢想�
��花绿绿的衣服，现在都勇敢地穿戴了现象。美丽漂亮的服装使这些老年人��
�觉年轻了，更富有朝气了。中国的服装款式在不断地变化。服装设计师们也
在不断把新的样式和新的色彩推向市场，以满足人们的需求。从某种意义上�
��中国多彩的服装市场，最生动地展现了一个变化中的中国和变化中的中国��
�。

The characters in red look odd there, but I don't know what they were supposed to be. The ones in
blue are the corrections I made according to grammar or common sense. Hope it be some help.










Aloysius -

#18 中国人的三大件
过去二十多年来，中国发生了巨大的变化。而中国人生活中的三大件的演变�
��对能代表在中国所发生的变化。什么是三大件呢？简单说来三大件就是只��
�常生活中三件很有用但也很贵重的东西。大约从七十年代初期就有了三大件
这个名词。当时中国还处在文化大革命中。那时候中国的经济情况很糟糕，�
��百姓的生活水平很低，多年来政府自力更生把中国的大门关起来。不跟西��
�国家做生意，结果好几十年中国的生财上不去，人民的生活得不到提高，常
时居民的收入很低，中国农民的生活更苦。很多地方一个人一天挣不到一分�
��。那时候中国生活中三大件就是自行车，手表和缝纫机。因为很少有家庭��
�以买得起这三大件。那时没一个大件都在一百块钱左右，算是很贵重的用品
了。一个刚参加工作的工人每个月的工资在二十多元钱，全面的工资总共不�
��二百多元钱，出去，吃饭，穿衣的钱每月很难省着(?)几块钱，所以要想买��
�大件。即使是平时很节俭也得需要好几年的时间。很多年轻人的梦想，就是
在结婚以前能够买上自行车，手表，缝纫机这三大件。到了一九七六年中国�
��领袖毛泽东去世，两年以后中国开始上世界敞开了大门。在国内政府也鼓��
�每个人想办法多挣钱。是中国的经济有了很快地发展。人民的生活水平也提
高了。到了八十年代中后期老三大件已经过时。这时的新三大件是彩电，冰�
��和洗衣机。新三大件的出
钱说明老百姓收入高了，生活改善了。到了九十年代中一些有钱的大款们又�
��了超级三大件，私房，轿车和计算机。虽然旧的三大件还没完全过时，但��
�的超级三大件一点点成为新一代中国人的梦想。谁知道了，也许在将来中国
的超级三大件也会成为过去。那时的人们一定会有更高级的三大件。

For those interested here's #18, bear in mind that this hasn't been (well) proof-read.










roddy -

过去二十多年来，中国发生了巨大的变化。而中国人生活中的三大件的演变�
��能代表在中国所发生的变化。什么是三大件呢？简单说来三大件就是指日��
�生活中三件很有用但也很贵重的东西。大约从七十年代初期就有了三大件这
个名词。当时中国还处在文化大革命中。那时候中国的经济情况很糟糕，老�
��姓的生活水平很低，多年来政府自力更生把中国的大门关起来。不跟西方��
�家做生意，结果好几十年中国的生产上不去，人民的生活得不到提高，城市
居民的收入很低，中国农民的生活更苦。很多地方一个人一天挣不到一分钱�
��那时候中国人生活中三大件就是自行车，手表和缝纫机。因为很少有家庭��
�以买得起这三大件。那时每一个大件都在一百块钱左右，算是很贵重的用品
了。一个刚参加工作的工人每个月的工资才二十多元钱，全年的工资总共不�
��二百多元钱，出去，吃饭，穿衣的钱每月很难省下几块钱，所以要想买三��
�件。即使是平时很节俭也得需要好几年的时间。很多年轻人的梦想，就是在
结婚以前能够买上自行车，手表，缝纫机这三大件。到了一九七六年中国的�
��袖毛泽东去世，两年以后中国开始向世界敞开了大门。在国内政府也鼓励��
�个人想办法多挣钱。使中国的经济有了很快的发展。人民的生活水平也提高
了。到了八十年代中后期老三大件已经过时。这时的新三大件是彩电，冰箱�
��洗衣机。新三大件的出现说明老百姓收入高了，生活改善了。到了九十年��
�中期一些有钱的大款们又有了超级三大件，私房，轿车和计算机。虽然旧的
三大件还没完全过时，但新的超级三大件已渐渐成为新一代中国人的梦想。�
��知道了，也许在将来中国的超级三大件也会成为过去。那时的人们一定会��
�了更高级的三大件。










Aloysius -

I fear a bunch of mistakes in #17 买东西
我们的生活离不开买东西，不管是吃的用都得需要（一件一件的买会来?）。
可是并不是每个人都会买东西。有的人天生就会买东西，买的东西又便宜，�
��量又好。有些人天生就不会买东西，花的（?）钱不少可是买会来的东西却�
��常不令人满意。所以很多人说买东西也是一门学文，是大有讲究的。在美��
�人们常常依靠广告买东西。每个大型货商店,每周都会印发大量的广告。商��
�也有很多推销产品的做法。比如降价销售，特价销售，买一送一，等等。这
些广告一般都夹在当地的报纸中。还有的商家把广告寄到居民的家里。很都�
��百姓先看看广告上价钱，然后决定到那个商店去买东西。所以在美国买东��
�，广告的作用是很大的。广告做得好，东西就卖得快。不错广告的商店恐怕
很难和别人竞争。另外美国的各种节假日也特别多。每个月份都有不同的节�
��。又官方认定的节日又民间的节日，直接节假日都为商家们提供难得的推��
�商品的机会（?）。商家也会根据不同的节日，在广告上推销不同的商品。��
�中国广告没有在美国那么重要。不少人这相信自己的经验（?），而（?）没�
��告是骗人的东西。在中国大城市的商业街上，更多的是
小型商店。有的卖男装，有的卖女装，一些常见的门饰还有鞋店，帽店，时�
��店，童装店，玩具店，文具店，音像店，书店，工艺品店，等等。可以说��
�什么商品，就有什么商店，每个商品的品牌也各种各样。顾客在买东西的时
候常常靠眼睛和手去判断一件东西的质量。所以中国有句倡言（？）叫货比�
��家。意思就是要又看几家商店又比较比较。然后在决定买样东西。很多会��
�东西的人常常是出了一个商店又进另一个商店需要花不少时间。所以要买到
一件自己很喜欢的东西，比用（!?）不是一间（?）很容易的事。会买东西的�
��往往是那些有耐心的人，他们把买东西当成一种乐趣，卖到东西当然好。��
�不到东西也不会太遗憾。Those of you able to pick out the 已渐渐，使 and 指‘s
impress me. Most of the corrections make sense with hindsight, but really only with hindsight.
What about “直接节假日”, it sounds correct but the meaning seems nonsensical.










roddy -

Apologies for not highlighting in red. 直接节假日 was 这些节假日. If you take a look at
the mistakes you've made you may be able to spot consistencies you can work on.

我们的生活离不开买东西，不管是吃的用的都得需要一件一件的买会来。可�
��并不是每个人都会买东西。有的人天生就会买东西，买的东西又便宜，质��
�又好。有些人天生就不会买东西，花的钱
不少可是买会来的东西却常常不令人满意。所以很多人说买东西也是一门学�
��，是大有讲究的。在美国人们常常依靠广告买东西。每个大型百货商店,每�
��都会印发大
量的广告。商家也有很多推销产品的做法。比如降价销售，特价销售，买一�
��一，等等。这些广告一般都夹在当地的报纸中。还有的商家把广告寄到居��
�的家里。很
多老百姓先看看广告上价钱，然后决定到那个商店去买东西。所以在美国买�
��西，广告的作用是很大的。广告做得好，东西就卖得快。不错广告的商店��
�怕很难和别
人竞争。另外美国的各种节假日也特别多。每个月份都有不同的节日。有官�
��认定的节日又民间的节日，这些节假日都为商家们提供了难得的推销商品��
�机会。商家也会根据不同的节日，在广告上推销不同的商品。在中国广告没
有在美国那么重要。不少人只相信自己的经验，而认为
广告是骗人的东西。在中国大城市的商业街上，更多的是
小型商店。有的卖男装，有的卖女装，一些常见的门市还有鞋店，帽店，时�
��店，童装店，玩具店，文具店，音像店，书店，工艺品店，等等。可以说��
�什么商品，
就有什么商店，每个商品的品牌也各种各样。顾客在买东西的时候常常靠眼�
��和手去判断一件东西的质量。所以中国有句常言叫货比三家。意思就是要��
�看几家商店多比较比较。然后在决定买一样东西。很多会买东西的人常常是
出了一个商店又进另一个商店需要花不少时间。所以要买到一件自己很喜欢�
��东西，并不是一件很容易的事。会买东西的人往往是那些有耐心的人，他��
�把买东西当成一种乐趣，买到东西当然好。买不到东西也不会太遗憾。










monto -

赴宴

男：你好，郭红红。
女：哎呀，雅克！你昨天晚上干什么去了？我们不是说好在一起复习功课了�
��？到处找你找不到，大家都以为你失踪了呢。
男：天啊，我这么把复习功课的事忘了！对不起，郭红红。我昨天晚上去参�
��了一个结婚宴会，特别热闹。
女：你还有心思去参加宴会啊？下星期就要大考了。
男：没办法，好朋友邀请不能拒绝啊。
女：那你参加的是谁的结婚宴会？
男：是我的球友，老张的。
女：老张？ 多老了？怎么才结婚呢？
男：大家都叫他老张。其实他并不老，才只有二十七岁。他已经谈了两年的�
��爱，昨天正好是八月八号。据说是个吉利的日子。
女：一点儿不错。八八八，发发发。发，就是发财的意思。怎么样，宴会上�
��人多吗？
男：多极了。新郎和新娘双方的很多亲戚朋友都出席了宴会。
女：有些什么活动呢？
男：主持人先让新郎新娘介绍恋爱经过。他们是自由恋爱的，没有通过别人�
��介绍。不过他们的故事还是挺浪漫的。
女：还有什么人讲话?
男：好几个人都讲了话，因为我肚子早饿了，没认真听他们到底说了些什么�
��好像都在重复说恭喜恭喜、早得贵子、白头到老之类的话。
女：那你一定吃了不少好东西吧？
男：真的。我第一次看见这么丰盛的酒席，山珍海味，应有尽有。
女：你没有吃坏肚子吧？
男：绝对没有。不过我喝酒喝多了一点儿。因为大家互相敬酒，尤其看见我�
��个会说中国话的老外，更是劝我多喝。幸亏我酒量大，没有喝醉。
女：别吹了！我看你现在还有一点儿醉呢。
男：开玩笑吧！我要是醉了，还能在这儿跟你说话吗？




Quote:

Post scriptum request for the good people - please enlighten me on the meaning of
"哪怕只有碗来粗细罢".

Some characters might be wrong there, but still can guess it is to desribe the diameter of a
cylinder or column or something shaped like that, meanig the diameter is about that of a rice bowl.










roddy -

The only place I remember seeing 碗来粗细 is in 矛盾‘s 杨树礼赞.

Quote:

这是虽在北方的风雪的压迫下却保持着倔强挺立的一种树！哪怕只有碗来粗�
��罢，它却努力向上发展，高到丈许，二丈，参天耸立，不折不挠，对抗着��
�北风。

Like monto I took it to mean 'about as wide (thick) as a bowl.












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